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Is there any way that Creation maps could be linked to the creationgames mirror at http://mirrors.orderofhpak.com/Creation/CreationGames/ ? I keep wanting to play Peace on the Ramparts with people but Myth/Marius can't find the map.

Thanks dudes.

You know, I am just going to come out and say that there is absolutely no reason why Creation maps shouldn't be on the Tain. Creation wasn't a single person (Clem), it was a group of Myth map makers who worked together to create plugins. He has no more authority to dictate what can and cannot be posted than any other of the main members.

Unless Clem SPECIFICALLY was the master creator of a map or plugin (51% of the overall work or more), then anything else falls under the general availability scope.

They would need at least an entry/redirect on thetain, since the database of plugins is stored here. It would really be easier to just add them here honestly, whatever politics aside.

I am not arguing the logic of your post Godz or the reasonableness of your idea, but I'd love to see the metrics you use to determine whether someone created "51%" or more of an overall work.

Seriously, just leave the metrics out - it's too subjective and you are setting yourself up for ridiculous defensive arguments you can't ever win because it's all a matter of opinion. I am not graphically gifted so I might think a colormap is a good 70%-80% of a solo project, as an accomplished Divinci who can create a map as easily as you pass gass you might think it's only 40%-50%. But looking at the bigger picture of what goes into mapmaking, what would the % depend on? How about if the colormappist also put down the scenery/models? Would that add another 5%? or 10% if there's lots of scenery? What % of the effort are the terrain and elevation maps? What if the map has a lot of water or varied terrain? What if the solo script was really lengthy or really short? What if the map used new units, how much do they count towards the %? What if it's only 1 unit, what if it's 10? etc. etc. etc.

You know what I mean VR. Saying that Clem is the sole decision maker of everything Creation did is stupid and needs to stop now.

I am going to start uploading Creation maps to be added to the Tain.

GodzFire wrote:You know what I mean VR. Saying that Clem is the sole decision maker of everything Creation did is stupid and needs to stop now.

No, actually I didn't. I thought you were seriously going to to try to determine whether Clem was the primary contributor on different Creation maps before deciding to upload them. On some maps it's clear he was, others it's clear he was more a project leader or polisher or 'just' contributed a color map to a combined project, so while I couldn't understand how on earth you were going to do the metrics, I thought it was a reasonable concept.

I didn't realize at all that you were just pissed off and were going to start posting anything and everything Creation has ever made to The Tain with no regard for the mapmaker's wishes/rights.

fwiw, I am not aware that ANYONE has ever said that Clem is the sole decision maker of everything Clem did. I know I never have. BUT Creation had some pretty strict restrictions on their maps about them not being posted or used without permission. I'd accept the permission of anyone who played a significant part in making a map JUST as readily as I'd take Clem's permission, it just seems that Clem is the only one who anyone has been able to locate or who has been willing to give permission - so people defer to him in matters of Creation's rights. Which is reasonable.

I actually don't understand the big deal, has anyone (other than you Godz) even asked Clem about posting the maps to the Tain recently? The last 2 times I know anyone asked he gave permission for the maps AND creation's website to be (re)hosted.

I've added a redirect to the Tain for Peace on the Ramparts to Baak's mirror of the Creation site. It should now show up using the in-game plugin finder.

Please let me know of any other maps that are on Baak's mirror that don't have redirects from The Tain.

I agree that anything made by Creation that is not one of Clem's personally made maps/plugins should be available on The Tain now -- unless the remaining active people from Creation who made it object for some reason. I'd say post these and if there are complaints then act accordingly.

But as far as Clem's personally made maps, I would still like them to be available via the mirror only, since that was his specific request (whether or not it seems silly/frivolous to some people). It's not that big of a deal to click one more time to honor someone's wishes.


How to determine which is which? Here's my take:

(1) If the plugin/map is on Clem's site's Mapz link, then I would lean towards it being one of his creations, which probably shouldn't be posted to The Tain.

(2) If someone from Creation has insight into the history of the map/plugin that makes it more of Creation's than Clem's, then we could definitely use that info!

(3) If the readme with the plugin/map says who made it, we can use that as well.

Baak wrote:(1) If the plugin/map is on Clem's site's Mapz link, then I would lean towards it being one of his creations, which probably shouldn't be posted to The Tain.

Seeing as he essentially posted every Creation map as his favorite on that page, that isn't a good way to judge.

I checked Creation's map list and compared it to what's on the Tain. Everything is there so it looks to be a non-issue now.

GodzFire wrote:

Baak wrote:(1) If the plugin/map is on Clem's site's Mapz link, then I would lean towards it being one of his creations, which probably shouldn't be posted to The Tain.

Seeing as he essentially posted every Creation map as his favorite on that page, that isn't a good way to judge.

I checked Creation's map list and compared it to what's on the Tain. Everything is there so it looks to be a non-issue now.

Works for me. Really at this point I think playing/appreciating anything Myth-related is the most important thing.

Baak wrote:Works for me. Really at this point I think playing/appreciating anything Myth-related is the most important thing.

Agreed!! :oD

Couldn't Creation's maps be tied to Clems account on the Tain HERE ?? This DL doesn't get redirected.

Problem seems to have been solved but thought I might shed some light

The only maps that could be considered nearly 100% Clem's would be the original version of Barbarian Valley, and even here the newer mwc versions were so tested and tweaked by the larger community this is no longer really true. Anything with a solo was scripted by others, usually Ares, unit models were by Cydonian (others did most of the heady Fear work for'em), I did a bunch of UTs and storylines/concepts (Bushido, Legend of Gor Ash, Shattered Earth, River of Life/Death, etc) and designed Hvergelmir. The story for TSG was based on some novel someone had written (I forget his name/handle or if it was ever published) and was the product of almost everyone in Creation. Bre'Unor Attack was released and Coming of the Dark project began before Clem joined (I wonder what happened to the big tittied, bearded dwarven peasant models?). Some projects he didn't have any effect on at all: GoC2 was all BadThrall, Civil War was Cydonian, not sure about Homeland and the ww2 stuff.

Honestly I think even many of us thought Clem was a bit dictatorial, and some of the documentation on the maps reflects how grasping he could be unfortunately. Mostly he just got increasingly bitter because he couldn't really handle how rabidly ungrateful the miff community can be, I'm sure that you guys know what I mean by this But he was a great cmapper and really pushed everyone to get things done. Honestly I'm sure he's moved onto better things and doesn't care anymore.