Page 1 of 2
Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 5:16 pm
by Sectus
Allright, eachin wanted the original thread on Playmyth (which got locked) to be continued. So here it is. Old locked thread is at: http://www.playmyth.net/index.p....&t=2701
I'd like to say that while I may seem rude at times I'm not here to try to bash down on everything what Magma has done. I do think you've done a few wrong decisions along the way, but I'm very happy Myth is at least updated at all. I've always been a big fan of source codes being released since it opens so many possibilities and the full potential of the game can be really be put to use. Which is why I feel it's a shame that after 1.5 the development on the Myth 2 source will be stopped. I'm not sure how much you're really allowed to do with the source, but since you're able to add something as major as vTFL then I will guess you have enough permission to do a lot of different stuff.
I'm also confused regarding how Contraband is involved in all this. They haven't said anything in public regarding their role with the Myth series. Have they been involved all along or did it start when MythDev got shut down and the development got transferred to Contraband? Does Contraband have any plans at all, if so, do they have plans for Myth 2 or only Myth 3? If anyone can answer any of those questions, that would really explain how things stand right now.
I hope this thread will remain a mature discussion and not turn into a mindless flamewar as some previous related discussions unfortunately has.
Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 5:39 pm
by Doobie
Well, it's not that I wanted the thread continued necessarily, but rather I wanted to let you know that if you wanted to continue this discussion you should post here at magma.net where the fear of thread locking is next to non-existant.
Anyway, while some of your posts have expressed some strong opinion, I wouldn't describe them as flamebait or rude. In fact we deffinately appreciate that you've taken the time to not only express why you're not entirely happy with the updates, but you've also suggested some useful improvements. It's exactly this kind of feedback that we need to make Myth as great as it can be.
As per source code release, I've mentioned this before, but it doesn't hurt to mention it again, we're not in a position to make that decision, and even if we were, we'd probably have some strong reservations about such actions. On the other hand, we are deffinately interested in taking input from the community, in fact, many of the old bugs that were fixed, and the new features that were added were coded specifically as a result of community participation.
As for Contraband's participation... this is a touchier subject, and one I don't have all the facts on. In fact, it's probably best if I let someone else address it.
Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 5:54 pm
by Doobie
Ok, Blades (or some other PMA) deleted my response to the thread that he locked (after trying to get the last work). I can't say I'm surprised, but it's no big deal since I've got a copy to post here in order to keep everything in context.
--------------------------------
I figured that Blades' post deserved a response, unfortunately he locked the thread, so I'm starting this one in order to reply to him.
Quote:
This thread is a waste of time and is pointless to continue because Doobie (eachin) has no clue what he's talking about... just like many with regard to this.
A waste of time as far as you're concerned I guess, Sectus and I didn't think so as was evident by our ongoing discussion which you decided to terminate. (by the way Sectus, if you'd like to continue our discussion i suggest posting on magma.net where we won't be interrupted).
Quote:
To say nobody can make a new game based on the myth engine is a complete fallacy because it's what myth map makers have been doing for years (Hello TSG and Jinn). The problem with Myth III is that it lacks the tool to do so. Of course, if someone could produce a tool - that would likely all change, but I've long given up hope of that. Using the Myth II tool you could build an entire new set of foundation tags and distribute them to your eyes bleed and nobody would give a rip. In fact, some would contend that this is pretty close to what was done with "The Fallen Levels". Frankly, I really couldn't care less any way - but I do believe is you have ZERO idea of the arrangement between Contraband/T2/MythDev and you weren't in on the deal so you likely aren't the one to be talking.
As Sectus very accurately pointed out, there is a world of difference between making a MOD for Myth II or III and making a brand new game using the source code as a starting point. This shouldn't be a difficult thing for you to grasp Blades, surely you see the difference.
As for my understanding of the relationship between Contraband/T2/MythDev, I actually DO have a pretty good idea. A lot better than most anyway, although obviously not as good as the people who belong to those organizations. I HAVE spoken with people from contraband, as well as the people who were the original holders of the agreement with Take2, not to mention numerous ex-mythdev members who are now magma members. So I have a good idea what those agreements said. Of course things could have changed, and I never claimed to know the whole story, in fact my previous post said more than once that this was only as far as I knew...
So did things change Blades? Is there more to the story? If you feel so passionately about this that you must reply to my post and then lock the thread maybe you'd care to elaborate for us all?
Quote:
Glad you say that "Myth II sucks" doobie...... I think you speak for a lot of Magma when you say that. SO glad you and your ilk working on the M2 code.
Nicely taken out of context Blades, very commendable. What I said was "M2 gameplay sucks compared to TFL gameplay". Notice this "compared to"? It's kind of critical, as I still think that m2 gameplay is EXCELLENT, just not nearly as excellent as TFL was (which was addressed by vTFL). And I stand by that 100%, because guess what? It's MY opinion, and I certainly don't speak for magma when I say that. We have players who come from TFL, SB, and TWA, obviously I don't speak for them when I state my own personal preference.
A pleasure as always Blades,
Doobie
Edited By Doobie on 1085007415
Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 6:06 pm
by Sectus
Doobie wrote:Well, it's not that I wanted the thread continued necessarily, but rather I wanted to let you know that if you wanted to continue this discussion you should post here at magma.net where the fear of thread locking is next to non-existant.
Anyway, while some of your posts have expressed some strong opinion, I wouldn't describe them as flamebait or rude. In fact we deffinately appreciate that you've taken the time to not only express why you're not entirely happy with the updates, but you've also suggested some useful improvements. It's exactly this kind of feedback that we need to make Myth as great as it can be.
As per source code release, I've mentioned this before, but it doesn't hurt to mention it again, we're not in a position to make that decision, and even if we were, we'd probably have some strong reservations about such actions. On the other hand, we are deffinately interested in taking input from the community, in fact, many of the old bugs that were fixed, and the new features that were added were coded specifically as a result of community participation.
As for Contraband's participation... this is a touchier subject, and one I don't have all the facts on. In fact, it's probably best if I let someone else address it.
Well, releasing the full source code to the public is something I realize wouldn't be very possible (unless Take Two suddenly wants to, and I assume it's still T2 which has all the rights), when I heard that MythDev was taken down and development was transferred to Contraband I just assumed there wasn't any strict argreement involved.
I do hope the future will bring some exciting new content to the Myth series. New maps and such are great, but the potential of new features with the source code is even greater. Even if such may take a lot of time to do and even though the community may be hesitant to accept any new major stuff, it would still be possible to keep something as a quiet side project and even if the community would be against it, it could released as an alternative build, and not as an "official" patch. Well, I'm just throwing out my opinion :p
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 12:01 am
by ChrisP
Interesting threads, here and on PMnet. I'd like to elaborate on some stuff at length, but that could take forever so I'll keep it brief - relatively
Sectus, one thing you're not going to get on any forum is all the facts. Bloo tried to explain a lot, but there were some glaring innacuracies in his post. I'm sure he meant no harm, and it's not his fault considering what his sources are. Blades will state no one knows the facts but him, but then anything he says publically is little but thinly veiled flames from a bitter person. Why he's bitter we won't get into.
You're not going to get the whole picture from any Magma member either. We don't have the type of organization where there is one central and official focus or leadership. Instead, as disorganized as it is, all we are is a loose group of individuals, opinions and friends. Bear that in mind as I write using the collective "we".
The position from on high regarding the source code, is pretty simple. No one really cares. Oh, someone from Contraband had enough fondness for Myth that he wanted to see work on it progress, which leads us here. And there was at some point some hope of share-waring Myth, which would have been great, but in the end, it didn't seem like it would work out financially.
Take 2 barely knows Project Magma or MythDev exist. Why should they? They're not game players, they're in the business of making money from games - and they make a LOT of money. So from that perspective, Myth, a now non-profitable franchise, isn't worth the time it takes to open an email about it. Except, that is, for three notable exceptions.
1. Take 2 owns the franchise, it costs them nothing to keep owning it, and other game franchises have been known to make come backs many years later, once generations of hardware have evolved. One day, when we're all running 50 Ghz computers, someone might have an idea for a Myth IV that Take 2 feels they can sell. Because of that potential, remote or not, Take 2 will keep a tight grip on Myth.
2. No business will let you get away with making money off of what they own. Were Project Magma somehow able to sell something based on the Myth engine without Take 2 getting the cut they demanded first, you could bet we'd get sued. There would end any and all future options for our hobby.
3. Take 2 isn't making money off of Myth anymore, but that doesn't mean if we started giving it away for free they wouldn't object. Chances are, someone high up there wouldn't even bother looking at the facts, or even which game it was exactly, they'd just have a cease and desist issued. Again, all future options terminate.
So for those reasons, Project Magma is very careful to make sure our actions in no way piss off the wrong people. That includes open sourcing any code we've been lucky enough to be entrusted to.
Now I'll attempt to explain Project Magma's position, and that is quite simply, we do what we do for fun. Yes, we really do care about the game, its future, its community, etc... but only because its fun. Is there any other reason really? Is there any obligation? Personally, I think the developments of the last couple months are kind of funny. Many people have been treating us like they are our paying customers. Luckily, most of the people at Project Magma don't take too much seriously, because if they did, the current relationship with parts of the Myth community wouldn't be too fun.
I expect my statement about lack of seriousness is going to get construed by someone into yet another "Project Magma" doesn't care accusation. The truth is we do care, different members in slightly different ways, and of course, we can only care so much as time allows, but I don't think any of the more vocal detractors have any idea why or how we care. More to the point, I'd like to see one of them preface their accusations with an explanation WHY we should care. The closest I've seen is opinions that our work is going to cause people to stop playing Myth unless we did it the way they (the poster) specified. They need to stop and ask themselves if we couldn't do it in a way that's ultimately fun for us, why we would even bother. Heck, it's not like WE really get to play anymore. Again, to address another potentially misconstrued notion, we're not so dumb or reckless that we'd want to produce work that few or none thought worth downloading.
Now, I believe your main point was the future of Myth development. You state you thought a lot more could still be done besides vTFL. You're right, but I think you're not fully realizing the potential behind what's in 1.5. Having worked very closely as part of vTFL and most of the new features (in a non-programming capacity, that is), it's my opinion that what can be done now is much more amazing than vTFL.
But of course, you're right, there is still much more potential for future updates, but they run certain risks, which is why our consensus for now is that it ends with 1.5 for Myth 2. One risk is introducing new bugs. The more dramatic the change to the engine, the greater likelyhood of more "bugs". Or a better way to put it is, the more dramatic the changes we'd like to make, the more work it is to keep standard Myth unchanged, and that's what the majority of Myth players demand.
My own desire is to finish what I hope will be some of the most unique and special plugins ever made for Myth 2, and then move on. There are too many "mistakes" that can be made if we were to try another major update. For 1.4, we had a private testing team of almost fifty people who tested very hard for months, yet bugs remained, and we got beat up for not having a public beta. For 1.5, we tried public betas, and we got beat up for not testing privately enough. It was still all worth it in the end, but man, there were a lot of time drains. Apparently, many people would like us to take the time off from our day jobs to provide perfect versions every time. We'd like to also, but hey, name even one computer game developer that does that with a complex game. The point is, after a year of this process, the constraints start to get more tiring than fun.
I'll close on a positive note, which in a way, is maybe sort of what you wanted to hear. Those of us at Project Magma absolutely love most of what we do together. I hope and wish to be working on projects with some of my friends here for another twenty years. One common bond we share is that there is absolutely no other gameplay that compares to Myth for us. The lack of a 1.6 might seem like a gloomy end, but one consistent thing about Project Magma in the four years of its existance has been that there are a lot more beginnings than ends.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 3:06 am
by Sectus
Thanks for the reply, I'm always looking for more pieces to solve this puzzle. I think the thing which is most difficult with trying to get to understand this whole situation isn't the lack of people telling the truth, it's the amount of people lying. For instance, I'm having a hard time believing anything which clem says since all his words are filled with nothing but hatred, but still he's one of the persons willing to spill out what he truly means (even though 90% of that is pure mindless flames). I can remember one thread on this forum shortly after the demise of MythDev and people kept asking about Contraband and what their plans were. Some Magma guys said this were great news and that Contraband has great plans for Myth. And then we have the other guys which says that Contraband will in reality do absolutely nothing related to Myth. I think I'll take the latter as a more reasonable conclusion.
To be honest, I'm really disappointed that MythDev was shut down. If it were up to me, I'd rather see two teams work on different things, than only one team doing their own thing.
Now I'll attempt to explain Project Magma's position, and that is quite simply, we do what we do for fun. Yes, we really do care about the game, its future, its community, etc... but only because its fun. Is there any other reason really? Is there any obligation? Personally, I think the developments of the last couple months are kind of funny. Many people have been treating us like they are our paying customers. Luckily, most of the people at Project Magma don't take too much seriously, because if they did, the current relationship with parts of the Myth community wouldn't be too fun.
I have to say I agree with the public here. You are technically responsible right now for giving out "official" updates to the game. If you fuck up, then it's your fault, and it will have a big impact on the community since your patches are the most official ones we have, and they will be played. In that regard, I understand they treat you like they were paying customers.
I'd just like to mention that this is a *very* common problem though. There's been thousands of cases where a developer creates a patch which causes an uproar in the community, like with Jedi Knight 2 when Raven released a ton of patches (all of them changing multiplayer gameplay drastically!), I think I've never seen such a mad community before. And similar with Call of Duty where InfinityWard created a patch which heavilly nerfed sniper rifles, it's obvious which response that got. Avoiding a situation like this isn't very easy.
Now, I believe your main point was the future of Myth development. You state you thought a lot more could still be done besides vTFL. You're right, but I think you're not fully realizing the potential behind what's in 1.5. Having worked very closely as part of vTFL and most of the new features (in a non-programming capacity, that is), it's my opinion that what can be done now is much more amazing than vTFL.
I think I might be a bit biased when it comes to this. I can understand the potential with expanding mapping and modding possibilities, but there's still only so much you can do to modify a game without it's source code. I tend to think too much like a programmer, and think of new original modifications which would only be allowed through source code. That's the potential I want to see used.
My own desire is to finish what I hope will be some of the most unique and special plugins ever made for Myth 2, and then move on. There are too many "mistakes" that can be made if we were to try another major update. For 1.4, we had a private testing team of almost fifty people who tested very hard for months, yet bugs remained, and we got beat up for not having a public beta. For 1.5, we tried public betas, and we got beat up for not testing privately enough. It was still all worth it in the end, but man, there were a lot of time drains. Apparently, many people would like us to take the time off from our day jobs to provide perfect versions every time. We'd like to also, but hey, name even one computer game developer that does that with a complex game. The point is, after a year of this process, the constraints start to get more tiring than fun.
Okay, first of all, I think there is a better solution to the beta testing problem. I understand that no solution will be perfect, bugs will always come through, that's just how it is. To avoid the previous incident you had with the beta patch being bashed down, you could have talked with PlayMyth and got them to ban the beta patch from ranked gameplay. That would remove 90% of the complainers, and would emphasize that it's a *beta* patch, supposed to be used for testing and not serious gaming. (still though, whenever you change anything gameplay related (like with that whole "order melee troops to an death sentence") or introduce major bugs then people will complain, this is how it unfortunately is with official updates)
I still think you guys should consider making a new patch to fix minor stuff though. I posted some suggestions which a few Magma people thought were good, and might be feasible to implement, but it probably wouldn't be done since 1.5 is soon done, and you probably won't do anything past that. Is there so much harm in doing a *minor* patch?
But regarding how to develop and beta test something major. I think an easy solution for this is just to start a new quiet project which you have on the side, and not as any primary project. Something you keep to test out new possibilities for mods and such, and if you find out that it works and you've created something new and fun, you could either go the bad way of releasing it as an official patch (which would give lots of headache if there's lots of bad bugs) or the other way of just releasing it as a mod. So people who are interested will play it, but the others will play normal Myth not worrying about anything.
And if it so that none of you are interested in working with the source code anymore and would rather work with different things, why not get in new people or let another team work on new stuff? That's the bad thing about MythDev being gone, they had some specific plans of what they wanted to do, but any possible great thing they could have is now completely gone.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 10:03 am
by CIK
I wouldn't lament the passing of MythDev too much, all the programmers who contributed any decent amount of code are still here and a member of Magma. Plans have changed with time and such, we did loose Clem for Myth III tag work and Blade’s administration abilities with the death of MythDev, but without all the extra programming help 1.5 would have been a much smaller release.
To flush out the whole MythDev to Contraband thing....MythDev had decided to work on making something new (Clem & Blades will still make something new someday) and stop making updates to Myth. All the negative feedback & flames had turned everyone off to putting in the effort to keep updating Myth. Not willing to let Myth II die at 1.4, I made contact with Contraband which are the keepers of the source for Take2(they also wrote Myth III for the most part also) and found they where working on trying to shareware Myth II & TFL(which is still a possibility if T2 would just sign the deal). Around the same time I started having chats with ex-MythDev members who where interested in fixing bugs in 1.4.x. So we formed a new team using the Contraband name and started making some plans. After some time, we ended up using the Magma name for the team, since Magma had a web site, web developers, testers, etc. Has a group of programmers we needed outside help and most of the team already belonged to Magma so it was easy to move Myth development to Magma.
As for programming changing in 1.5 to extended Myth II, there have been a number of them. We haven’t published a map making guide yet for 1.5(needs to be written and edited), but trust me 1.5 greatly expands possibilities for map makers. Some of the upcoming Magma maps will be showing off some these new abilities.
In the end the place to really try and push the engine is in Myth III, the graphics of II are starting to look very dated and such. Myth III still needs a lot of up front work to fix some serious bugs and stuff in it and some map making tools too. Not to mention a few more players.
Also to repeat what ChrisP and others said, Magma doesn’t have centralized control and administration which is frequently not obvious to outsiders. So not everyone knows everything and some times we suffer from facts getting messed up while being passed between members on the grapevine.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 5:13 pm
by Graydon
Wow. Incredible thread guys, and civilized too. It took me an hour and 4 mintues to read everything :0
I must say I've learned some things here, and don't have to state some things I would have replied to earlier on in the PMnet thread part of this. The only thing I'd like to address still....which has partially been covered already, is the talk about releasing multiple mods that thoroughly took advantage of source code use. The beauty of tje Myth Series of games is the plugins feature. Some people would call this a 'mod', but here we call em plugs. When you (sectus) come along talking about making 'mods' using the source code I have to question the logicality of this. It would be chaotic! Say it was open sourced, and there were 15 different mods for myth available at a certain point (this number could only climb)....how would you know who you could play with?! How would one distinguish between mod X and mod Y? It just doesnt seem plausible when there is so much that can be done with a simple plugin file, yet still retain basic usage of the normal game. It's a crazy idea, and would be absolutely sweet were it to be figured out and done, but for the reasons of mass confusion, and the reasons Doobie and ChrisP have addressed (ie NDAs and legality issues with T2) it just wouldnt happen.
Brought up some great conversation here guys. Good job.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 6:19 pm
by CIK
One final comment about open sourcing Myth: It sounds like a good idea and an idea I've suggested in the past myself. If Myth was open sourced a few things would happen:
1. There would be an large amount of PR, followed by a bunch new and old players showing up to play the game.
2. There would be some very cool modifications created.
3. Someone would add some massive cheats to the game and ranked game play would be history for good. A very easy cheat to add would be to display all teams on the overhead map.
4. There would be a different dozen versions of Myth and it would be impossible to play on playmyth.net without the risk of OOS every other game.
Final thought: If anyone has coding skillz and wants to try there hand at screwing around with Myth I’m very open to adding more coders to the team.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 8:33 pm
by ChrisP
Sectus wrote:I can remember one thread on this forum shortly after the demise of MythDev and people kept asking about Contraband and what their plans were. Some Magma guys said this were great news and that Contraband has great plans for Myth.
Heh, actually that was me who said that months ago, and I stand by it. Without Contraband's involvement, Myth development would certainly have died with MythDev. That Project Magma can/is developing Myth again, is great news in my mind. Then there was (is?) Contraband's plans for sharewaring Myth. Something like that, if it happened, would have wonderful potential towards revitilizing Myth.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 9:05 pm
by Sectus
I must say I've learned some things here, and don't have to state some things I would have replied to earlier on in the PMnet thread part of this. The only thing I'd like to address still....which has partially been covered already, is the talk about releasing multiple mods that thoroughly took advantage of source code use. The beauty of tje Myth Series of games is the plugins feature. Some people would call this a 'mod', but here we call em plugs. When you (sectus) come along talking about making 'mods' using the source code I have to question the logicality of this. It would be chaotic! Say it was open sourced, and there were 15 different mods for myth available at a certain point (this number could only climb)....how would you know who you could play with?! How would one distinguish between mod X and mod Y? It just doesnt seem plausible when there is so much that can be done with a simple plugin file, yet still retain basic usage of the normal game. It's a crazy idea, and would be absolutely sweet were it to be figured out and done, but for the reasons of mass confusion, and the reasons Doobie and ChrisP have addressed (ie NDAs and legality issues with T2) it just wouldnt happen.
I think it would be possible. I'm not talking about any major though, like releasing the source code (the chances of that are very slim anyway) and have lots of different "source ports" like with what happened to Doom. I'm just talking some minor mods. There are already some plugins/mods which are made which has the same limitations as a source modification would have. For instance, in my Myth 2 directory I have a plugin which changes all the levels in Myth 2 but it doesn't come as one big plugin file, it came as it's own /local directory which overrides everything. So I have to quit and restart the game and change a few directories to be able to play normal Myth 2. (all of this is just because the author wasn't wise enough to compile the "addon" as a plugin though) It would be similar with mods, there's the disadvantage you can't change mods ingame, you'll either have to install different copies of Myth 2, or do some changing around each time you want to play with the mod or not.
But I think it could work. Those who wants to play the mod would get together and play it, while most other people will play normal Myth completely undisturbed.
One final comment about open sourcing Myth: It sounds like a good idea and an idea I've suggested in the past myself. If Myth was open sourced a few things would happen:
1. There would be an large amount of PR, followed by a bunch new and old players showing up to play the game.
2. There would be some very cool modifications created.
3. Someone would add some massive cheats to the game and ranked game play would be history for good. A very easy cheat to add would be to display all teams on the overhead map.
4. There would be a different dozen versions of Myth and it would be impossible to play on playmyth.net without the risk of OOS every other game.
Yeah, you have some good points. I do think though that having an open source Myth would be good in the long run. It has worked pretty well in some cases, the Jagged Alliance 2 code was released just a mere months ago, people there are doing a very good job at making a centralized new version of JA2 where they add and fix stuff. Of course, then we have something like Doom which has a ton of different source ports (there was actually one attempt back in 99 or so where a big group tried to combine every major Doom source port into one... naturally it failed quite horribly). But even in the case of Doom there's one big advantage, the gamers are able to play exactly what they want. Many people go with jDoom because it's pretty graphics, many other people go to Doom Legacy because of it's gameplay features, and so on. But open source could destroy something like PlayMyth though, which would be really bad.
Final thought: If anyone has coding skillz and wants to try there hand at screwing around with Myth I?m very open to adding more coders to the team.
Me me me me me me me me me me me me me!
*ahem*
me!
I'm not the greatest of programmers, but I do have a good deal of experience. Especially with modification of game source codes. I'm actually working right now on finishing a Doom mod I've been working on.
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 9:45 pm
by chazo
jdoom rox 
Posted: Thu May 20, 2004 10:40 pm
by CIK
Actually you put your local file mods into a plugin file and then you can turn the plugin off and on while in game. Though it does have some limitations but mostly inguard to changing things like the interface and stuff while a game isn't actually in progress.
Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 1:06 am
by Guest
CIK wrote:Final thought: If anyone has coding skillz and wants to try there hand at screwing around with Myth I’m very open to adding more coders to the team.
ehem
Posted: Fri May 21, 2004 2:38 am
by Sectus
CIK wrote:Actually you put your local file mods into a plugin file and then you can turn the plugin off and on while in game. Though it does have some limitations but mostly inguard to changing things like the interface and stuff while a game isn't actually in progress.
Yeah, I know. But this was a mod which hadn't been put into a plugin file, if I knew how I'd probably do it myself, since renaming the local directory each time I wanna run the mod isn't exactly the best way.