Rabican, the Eternal Champion

Talk about anything here.

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Postby alzapa » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:23 pm

Baron LeDant wrote:edit - to alzapa - rabican has a low tolerance threshold for people who don't know what they are talking about. He frequently scolds his companions and himself so he's harmless

I am sorry if I judged him wrong.
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Postby Truth » Wed Oct 04, 2006 5:25 pm

this thread is horrible :O

a. if you even want to try beat v1 on heroic, your going to need some extremely elite myth players who know mazz inside out (and im pretty sure i can count those on one hand) even then i still think it would be impossible. anyone who thinks differently, go prove me wrong.

b. your going to need an extreme slice of luck to get past all those rd's without the bug happening

c. why bother, it would be 10x more frustrating than the enjoyment you get out of it

d. sorry oro, but comparing cbing to this bug doesnt make much sense. the whole reason cbing got stamped out was because of balance. it upset the whole rock paper part of the game. It always seemed to me unfair that a person who could master one little part of the game could kill someone who while might not have been able to cb.. was excellent at all other aspects of the game.

e. elfoid, get your hand out of rabs pants please.

f. rab is a nice guy, but frankly i dont think he would lose much sleep over people thinking he isnt :O

g. why does godzfire always make the joke about how hes already beaten it and the patch made it easier? its still not funny. :O

i hate people who make posts using letters as bulletpoints... oh wait.
now lets have cupcakes.
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Postby Oroboros » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:03 pm

Baron LeDant wrote:I think you need to think a bit more about your posts Oro.

I hope several people do, Baron. That's the point.
Baron LeDant wrote:Your comments indicate a lack of knowledge of Mazz, this is an example...

Oroboros wrote:Perhaps in future the first thing to consider is harvesting roots before setting up a base camp,

In this case you're ignorant of how the group of Timmah, Rabican etc play.

I notice you conveniently left out the next two words of my sentence: "I dunno.", which indicates yes, I AM ignorant of the way some people play. You think I have all the answers? No. Again, that's the point of a post-talk on a difficult game.

But thanks for your information - Perhaps a solution includes having more people, or two players who don't have units that just hunt the map for artifacts and certain monsters, I DON'T KNOW. I'm just putting suggestions out there.

Baron LeDant wrote:
Oroboros wrote:There are two ways to overcome bugs. Fix the bug, or out-think it and play around it, possibly exploit it. Hey, maybe it CAN'T be out-thought. But no-one was given the chance for the second way.

Lets apply this in a different way, say a judge is blatantly biased in a Boxing match, now the obvious thing would be to have the judge thrown out for their obvious bias, no-one would ever suggest that the boxer who the judge is biased against should have to fight harder.

Ah well, you're analogy makes a major assuption that wasn't in the bug-fix decision. It's in the term "blatantly biased".

Let's say this happened: the explosions/dragon breath problem was discovered, but instead of ChrisP saying "Argh - It's a bug", he said "Ah, I see you need a new way to approach the Black Thrall", what would you have thought? Possibly "Ah that blows - fix the bug so we can finish it in a week." Possibly "Fook - we're going to have to rethink this - Forget playing it, just watch the films, see what we missed".

Baron LeDant wrote:None of this is personal or anything, but I felt I really needed to point some stuff out :cry:

Understood, but understand this, Baron. I'm also a thinker. I have no wish to cast aspersions of weakness or undermine the huge amount of concentration, stamina and dedication its taken to beat Mazz 6v2 - It really is an incredible fight and the people who've beaten it are the best of the best.

All I'm saying is that people cannot say the bug in v1 prevented it being beaten. There's no proof.

As an illustration: There's a mathematical theory called Goldbach's Conjecture, which basically says every number bigger than five is the sum of three prime numbers. (There has been development on this, but this is simple enough to understand).

However, no-one's been able to PROVE this conjecture is true. There's no mathematical proof that says this conjecture is true for all cases or false in some cases. It's 'reasonable' to assume it's true, but it's still just an assumption.

So... Just because the best of the best have found the Mazz 6 bug alarmingly difficult to circumvent, does not count as proof that it can't be circumvented.

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Postby CheezeFist » Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:13 pm

Eat shit Oro
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Postby Truth » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:01 pm


evidence i have of heroic being unbeatable: 4 or so films
evidnce oro has of heroic being beatable: zilch

we tried, and experimented like mad. when watcher cast red pop on thrall and it keep going off on the black thrall half way round the map we thought "maybe this is a feature and we have to counter it somehow" which we tried, but to no avail. then when arch viles didnt die to about 20 lightning strikes i thought "maybe the last wave of bosses is just tougher". we didnt just automatically jump to the conclusion that it was a bug. it was only after about 8 hours (for me at least, im pretty sure rab/tim put in a lot more) we decided to whinge like little girls to CP :O

and the way the bug affected the map is totally random. one game, units wouldnt die in a different game we had the infinite red pop on black thrall and then in another we had bushes not explode.

oro, its not beatable. not to sound elitist or anything, but we've played a hell of a lot more mazz 6 than you and have a better idea of whats beatable and whats not. god mode enemy thrall = not beatable. :)
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Postby vinylrake » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:33 pm

Truth wrote:....
evidence i have of heroic being unbeatable: 4 or so films
evidnce oro has of heroic being beatable: zilch

I am NOT chiming in on whether the map was beatable in v1 or not, and am not commenting in ANY way on the skills of the people involved in this debate but from a pure logic point of view, the existence of 4 (or 8, or 12, or 20, or 100) films of a map NOT being beat is not in any way shape or form anything remotely resembling 'proof' that mazz 6 v1 was unbeatable on heroic.

Saying that having films showing the map NOT being beat and calling that evidence that it is unbeatable is like saying "I have 4 or so films of inventors trying to create flying machines but none of them are successful, that's evidence that it's impossible to fly".
Lots of Myth stuff at http://mythgraveyard.org.
Sometimes I put hard to find stuff in my my Udogs folder.
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Postby rabican » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:42 pm

v.1 had special watcher object in leg difficulty, all its damage modifiers had been set to 0.000 for testing purposes. i'm sure orobors would've figured a way past it though!
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Postby iron » Wed Oct 04, 2006 9:56 pm

To my mind, if its something that basically takes away your ability to kill the enemy then that makes it unbeatable. There's no way of running & hiding, no cliffs to lure the enemy thrall over like a pack of lemmings ... nothing except killing them with your weaponry. Take the weapons away & the thrall will always win.

Comparing it to carpet bombing (chain kicking would have been more apt) is misleading as those 'bugs' let you kill the enemy more rather than less. And besides, they could be fun as anyone who's played that TFL Ambush II co-op could tell you. Losing your ability to kill enemies after 2 hours of hard slog is not fun.

Besides all that, if CP said its a bug & hurried to fix it then by God it was a bug. There's nothing more really needs to be discussed concerning it. I agree with Truth - this thread has turned horrible, and I do like cupcakes :)
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Postby Truth » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:33 pm

How is not proof? I didnt know i sent you the films to watch.

Im not even going to go into how silly your little analogy about flying is. heh

argghgahhgga theres so many silly things in your post i just want to die.
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Postby Truth » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:36 pm

yay someone posted exactly what i wanted to say. My way with words is just so horrible.

cheers iron.
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Postby ChrisP » Wed Oct 04, 2006 10:55 pm

Technically, what Oro is suggesting is possible and correct. It can be beat just by sheer random dumb luck (I could provide a technical description how), you could somehow try to kill all red dragons instantly from a distance (hah!), you could make a pathetic attempt at using just melee attacks to damage units, or you could come to my house and hold a gun to my head and make me lie that it was beat. None of these ideas, in my opinion, are any fun.

Look, it was a bug that makes me cringe in shame everytime it gets mentioned. Can we please stop talking about it? :oops:

In the meantime, the higher difficulty levels on SL should be insane enough challenges for anyone.
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Postby buckweaver » Thu Oct 05, 2006 2:06 am

How many wraiths on SL heroic in last wave?

ps I guess nobody saw MUST WEB dragons fast, if you miss one..restart.

enjoy, and I get credit for wins with my strat on mazzVI v1

I guess cheeze said it best.
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Postby The Elfoid » Thu Oct 05, 2006 6:04 pm

elfoid, get your hand out of rabs pants please.

Its you I <3 Truth :(

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Postby Gleep » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:47 pm

Dudes! Level 4 FG can kill ALL the black thrall by himself, just have ranger keep wrs off him, and if aoe spells don't work for us then the enemy's won't either! I will get a team together one day for the sole purpose of beating v1 heroic and put a end to all this bickering!

Long live Mazz!
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Postby ChrisP » Mon Oct 23, 2006 2:24 pm

I promised this a while ago, and here it finally is: the collection of all of Rabican's Mazz VI victories (up to SL Heroic) 13 films in all.

Please note that a few of these films require the original version of Mazz VI to view, but all the really tough difficulties were beaten on v2.

http://hl.udogs.net/files/Uploads/%20Us ... 0films.zip

Doh, apparently the url is too long to be clickable. Copy/pasting it works though.
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